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	<title>Comments on: On Not Withdrawing</title>
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	<link>http://www.codeblog.com/archives/tales_from_the_ccu/on_not_withdrawing.html</link>
	<description>tales of a nurse (homepage)</description>
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		<title>By: Mia</title>
		<link>http://www.codeblog.com/archives/tales_from_the_ccu/on_not_withdrawing.html/comment-page-1#comment-431</link>
		<dc:creator>Mia</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 Apr 2005 19:35:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://s261628773.onlinehome.us/download/wordpress/?p=74#comment-431</guid>
		<description>I just found this really old post of yours on &quot;withdrawing treatment.&quot;  It&#039;s great you are bringing these cases to light so that others may learn from them.  I hope we will soon shift away from using the terminology &quot;withdrawing&quot; care or treatment, however.  I think of it as shifting goals of care.  We are still treating symptoms and always provide care even when we are letting natural death occur.  I think focusing on this change in the terminology within our own medical culture as providers will help families, patients and yes, other health care providers, make this shift, too.  Thanks so much for sharing these experiences - and your frustrations which I can definitely relate to - in your blog.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I just found this really old post of yours on &#8220;withdrawing treatment.&#8221;  It&#8217;s great you are bringing these cases to light so that others may learn from them.  I hope we will soon shift away from using the terminology &#8220;withdrawing&#8221; care or treatment, however.  I think of it as shifting goals of care.  We are still treating symptoms and always provide care even when we are letting natural death occur.  I think focusing on this change in the terminology within our own medical culture as providers will help families, patients and yes, other health care providers, make this shift, too.  Thanks so much for sharing these experiences &#8211; and your frustrations which I can definitely relate to &#8211; in your blog.</p>
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		<title>By: Alan E Brain</title>
		<link>http://www.codeblog.com/archives/tales_from_the_ccu/on_not_withdrawing.html/comment-page-1#comment-430</link>
		<dc:creator>Alan E Brain</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 May 2004 07:53:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://s261628773.onlinehome.us/download/wordpress/?p=74#comment-430</guid>
		<description>Having read the previous comments, I guess I&#039;m lucky.

A patient, male, 68, 95% blockage in the LAD, history of myocardial infarct, arrested as I arrived at the ward, and was resuscitated at per my instructions. 12 hours later, the patient was awake, aware, and fully conscious. However, when the cardiologist informed me that the left side of the patient&#039;s heart was akinetic, with no salvage possible, treatment was withdrawn, with the patient&#039;s informed consent. Morphine was given &#039;to assist breathing&#039;, and when the patient&#039;s breathing became laboured, more was administered.
My Father had already choked to death once 12 hours earlier, no need for him to be aware of it when it happened again.
The Family, the Patient, and the Medical team must give 100% until there&#039;s zero hope, but then it&#039;s equally important to know when to stop. In Dad&#039;s case, it was an easy call for both he and I to make.
I miss him though, terribly.

</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Having read the previous comments, I guess I&#8217;m lucky.</p>
<p>A patient, male, 68, 95% blockage in the LAD, history of myocardial infarct, arrested as I arrived at the ward, and was resuscitated at per my instructions. 12 hours later, the patient was awake, aware, and fully conscious. However, when the cardiologist informed me that the left side of the patient&#8217;s heart was akinetic, with no salvage possible, treatment was withdrawn, with the patient&#8217;s informed consent. Morphine was given &#8216;to assist breathing&#8217;, and when the patient&#8217;s breathing became laboured, more was administered.<br />
My Father had already choked to death once 12 hours earlier, no need for him to be aware of it when it happened again.<br />
The Family, the Patient, and the Medical team must give 100% until there&#8217;s zero hope, but then it&#8217;s equally important to know when to stop. In Dad&#8217;s case, it was an easy call for both he and I to make.<br />
I miss him though, terribly.</p>
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		<title>By: Da Goddess</title>
		<link>http://www.codeblog.com/archives/tales_from_the_ccu/on_not_withdrawing.html/comment-page-1#comment-429</link>
		<dc:creator>Da Goddess</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 Jul 2003 11:26:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://s261628773.onlinehome.us/download/wordpress/?p=74#comment-429</guid>
		<description>The reality of the machines and the crash cart...sometimes families need to see those in order to fully appreciate what all that means to the patient...before they can decide what to do.

I know, for myself, that I&#039;ll have everything spelled out well in advance...and if I have to carry a copy of the directives around with me to make sure my wishes are heeded...so be it!
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The reality of the machines and the crash cart&#8230;sometimes families need to see those in order to fully appreciate what all that means to the patient&#8230;before they can decide what to do.</p>
<p>I know, for myself, that I&#8217;ll have everything spelled out well in advance&#8230;and if I have to carry a copy of the directives around with me to make sure my wishes are heeded&#8230;so be it!</p>
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		<title>By: AuntLorri</title>
		<link>http://www.codeblog.com/archives/tales_from_the_ccu/on_not_withdrawing.html/comment-page-1#comment-428</link>
		<dc:creator>AuntLorri</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Jul 2003 15:58:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://s261628773.onlinehome.us/download/wordpress/?p=74#comment-428</guid>
		<description>I hope you are at my bedside if I am ever in that situation.  xxxooo
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I hope you are at my bedside if I am ever in that situation.  xxxooo</p>
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		<title>By: suzi</title>
		<link>http://www.codeblog.com/archives/tales_from_the_ccu/on_not_withdrawing.html/comment-page-1#comment-427</link>
		<dc:creator>suzi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Jul 2003 03:06:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://s261628773.onlinehome.us/download/wordpress/?p=74#comment-427</guid>
		<description>Geena, I totally understand your position and would feel the same way.  I once worked in a long term care facility where a lot of patients were on tube feedings, some of them responsive only to deep pain and having the tube changed (this was when NG tubes were being used mostly, not gastrostomy tubes.)  There were a few patients that I felt like I was torturing every month when I had to change their tubes.  It would have been so much more compassionate to &quot;let nature take its course&quot; in some of those cases.  There was one I remember in particular who ended up having large doses of IM Valium each time because he reacted so violently to trying to put the tube in.  I felt awful about having to do that to him.

People defininely need education about what DNR vs. full code really means.  I often thought the families who insisted on having everything possible done when the circumstances were like you described were carrying a lot of guilt about their relationships with the person who was dying. As long at they kept the person alive, they didn&#039;t have to deal with the guilt fully.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Geena, I totally understand your position and would feel the same way.  I once worked in a long term care facility where a lot of patients were on tube feedings, some of them responsive only to deep pain and having the tube changed (this was when NG tubes were being used mostly, not gastrostomy tubes.)  There were a few patients that I felt like I was torturing every month when I had to change their tubes.  It would have been so much more compassionate to &#8220;let nature take its course&#8221; in some of those cases.  There was one I remember in particular who ended up having large doses of IM Valium each time because he reacted so violently to trying to put the tube in.  I felt awful about having to do that to him.</p>
<p>People defininely need education about what DNR vs. full code really means.  I often thought the families who insisted on having everything possible done when the circumstances were like you described were carrying a lot of guilt about their relationships with the person who was dying. As long at they kept the person alive, they didn&#8217;t have to deal with the guilt fully.</p>
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		<title>By: geena</title>
		<link>http://www.codeblog.com/archives/tales_from_the_ccu/on_not_withdrawing.html/comment-page-1#comment-426</link>
		<dc:creator>geena</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Jul 2003 04:16:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://s261628773.onlinehome.us/download/wordpress/?p=74#comment-426</guid>
		<description>I am not against resuscitation in the least.  I am sometimes against resuscitating certain patients.
I&#039;m assuming that you&#039;re young or middle aged; in that case, absolutely!  If you&#039;re otherwise healthy, you definitely should be a candidate for all heroic measures.

The patients I get in ICU are not romantic.   There are rarely scenes where patients have nice peaceful deaths in which they see the light and die with smiles on their faces.
My patients are usually very very old, 70&#039;s to 90&#039;s and have multiple medical problems.
When I have a 94 year old patient who lives in a nursing home come in with tissue-paper thin skin, mulitple skin tears, and NO circulation in the entire lower half of her body,
I sort of have to wonder what her quality of life is going to be with all these heroic measures.
So we put her on a respirator, withhold pain medication per the family&#039;s request, put tubes in her neck, her nose, her mouth, her bladder, her rectum, her arms and watch her organs fail one by one despite everything we&#039;re doing, yet we STILL have to go on because the family won&#039;t let her go.
Is this really someone that you think should be shocked and have chest compressions?  She wasn&#039;t romantically seeing a life that I wasn&#039;t seeing - she was in horrendous pain from lack of circulation and from all the tubes hanging out of her body.
THESE are the kinds of patients that should be allowed to die peacefully.
Despite our best efforts, she died, and thank God.
Because we kept her body alive, her lower half rotted and stank, her bottom was raw and excoriated from the frequent cleaning and wiping we had to do, the skin tears
on her arms constantly drained extra fluid that her kidneys could not get rid of, and she had numerous sores.  Her family finally consented to small amounts of pain medicine.
THIS is the type of patient that I am heartbroken to have to &quot;do everything&quot; for.
I could have told you at the outset that she was not going to survive; her body, at 94 years old, was just trying to die.  94 years is long enough.

I hope I&#039;ve been able to clarify my position.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am not against resuscitation in the least.  I am sometimes against resuscitating certain patients.<br />
I&#8217;m assuming that you&#8217;re young or middle aged; in that case, absolutely!  If you&#8217;re otherwise healthy, you definitely should be a candidate for all heroic measures.</p>
<p>The patients I get in ICU are not romantic.   There are rarely scenes where patients have nice peaceful deaths in which they see the light and die with smiles on their faces.<br />
My patients are usually very very old, 70&#8217;s to 90&#8217;s and have multiple medical problems.<br />
When I have a 94 year old patient who lives in a nursing home come in with tissue-paper thin skin, mulitple skin tears, and NO circulation in the entire lower half of her body,<br />
I sort of have to wonder what her quality of life is going to be with all these heroic measures.<br />
So we put her on a respirator, withhold pain medication per the family&#8217;s request, put tubes in her neck, her nose, her mouth, her bladder, her rectum, her arms and watch her organs fail one by one despite everything we&#8217;re doing, yet we STILL have to go on because the family won&#8217;t let her go.<br />
Is this really someone that you think should be shocked and have chest compressions?  She wasn&#8217;t romantically seeing a life that I wasn&#8217;t seeing &#8211; she was in horrendous pain from lack of circulation and from all the tubes hanging out of her body.<br />
THESE are the kinds of patients that should be allowed to die peacefully.<br />
Despite our best efforts, she died, and thank God.<br />
Because we kept her body alive, her lower half rotted and stank, her bottom was raw and excoriated from the frequent cleaning and wiping we had to do, the skin tears<br />
on her arms constantly drained extra fluid that her kidneys could not get rid of, and she had numerous sores.  Her family finally consented to small amounts of pain medicine.<br />
THIS is the type of patient that I am heartbroken to have to &#8220;do everything&#8221; for.<br />
I could have told you at the outset that she was not going to survive; her body, at 94 years old, was just trying to die.  94 years is long enough.</p>
<p>I hope I&#8217;ve been able to clarify my position.</p>
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		<title>By: MoonBlonde</title>
		<link>http://www.codeblog.com/archives/tales_from_the_ccu/on_not_withdrawing.html/comment-page-1#comment-425</link>
		<dc:creator>MoonBlonde</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Jul 2003 02:55:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://s261628773.onlinehome.us/download/wordpress/?p=74#comment-425</guid>
		<description>Wow! I was amazed to read your diary. Your latest entry, you wonder why we don&#039;t just the obviously die instead of going through all these measures? As somebody whose died 3 times and was resucitated I will tell you what you may be missing. Because 5 more minutes is an entire life when your dying and it&#039;s worth being here 5 more minutes. Take a look around and see life, more dying people see it then those who will live much longer.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wow! I was amazed to read your diary. Your latest entry, you wonder why we don&#8217;t just the obviously die instead of going through all these measures? As somebody whose died 3 times and was resucitated I will tell you what you may be missing. Because 5 more minutes is an entire life when your dying and it&#8217;s worth being here 5 more minutes. Take a look around and see life, more dying people see it then those who will live much longer.</p>
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		<title>By: BeerMary</title>
		<link>http://www.codeblog.com/archives/tales_from_the_ccu/on_not_withdrawing.html/comment-page-1#comment-424</link>
		<dc:creator>BeerMary</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Jul 2003 14:45:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://s261628773.onlinehome.us/download/wordpress/?p=74#comment-424</guid>
		<description>When I worked Hospice, as well as ICU and ER, it never ceased to amaze me how much education people need on this issue!  They think &quot;no code&quot; means &quot;no care&quot;.  They think a ventilator is a cure-all.  It&#039;s disgusting.

Physicians can educate, but they don&#039;t have the time.  Instead of hiring office RN&#039;s to educate about these issues (hopefully, before the stressful illness), they hire MA&#039;s.

I don&#039;t see the situation improving.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>When I worked Hospice, as well as ICU and ER, it never ceased to amaze me how much education people need on this issue!  They think &#8220;no code&#8221; means &#8220;no care&#8221;.  They think a ventilator is a cure-all.  It&#8217;s disgusting.</p>
<p>Physicians can educate, but they don&#8217;t have the time.  Instead of hiring office RN&#8217;s to educate about these issues (hopefully, before the stressful illness), they hire MA&#8217;s.</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t see the situation improving.</p>
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